In this thought-provoking episode, we dive deep into the ongoing conversation around the decolonization of yoga and cultural appropriation. Hari-Kirtana Das and his guest Sarita Sugopi Telhan address critical questions on what truly qualifies someone to teach yoga. Does ethnicity determine authenticity, or is it one’s years of practice, knowledge, and spiritual dedication?
We also discuss the challenges modern yoga teachers face, navigating cultural reverence while teaching in a Westernized, often commodified yoga world. Tune in as participants share their struggles and insights on maintaining yoga’s sacredness amidst today’s yoga practices.
If you’re passionate about yoga, lineage, and respect for tradition, this conversation is for you.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Welcome everyone and thank you very much for being here for our monthly free community conversation. I’m Hari-kirtana Das and it is, as always, a great honor to have you here with me in a great pleasure for me to be here with you, and an extra special pleasure to be here with my special guest, Sugopi, who is going to speak with us about cultural appropriation in modern yoga.
Sugopi has immersed herself in the traditional world of yoga in its many forms since her youth. So she’s been engaged with yoga for practically her whole life. She spent summers in India, where she studied bhakti and yoga philosophy and mantra meditation. She completed her yoga teacher training at Inner Power Yoga and strives constantly to learn the infinite knowledge of yoga from her teachers and from her students as well.
She is a teacher of modern postural yoga, but also a teacher of traditional yoga philosophy and she aspires to kindle an awareness of the ancient wisdom of the yoga tradition within all of her students. When she’s not on her mat, you can find her traveling, learning Ayurveda, reading by a rainy window, or spending an afternoon at the dog park with her giant puppy, Bhumi. Sugopi, thank you so very much for being here and welcome.
SUGOPI: Thank you so much for having me.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Yeah, it’s my pleasure. Um. Let’s begin with just a little bit more of your background than the brief introduction I was able to give you has revealed. Um. Tell us if you would be so kind a little bit about your personal yoga journey.
SUGOPI: Hi, everybody. My name is Sugopi. I want to start off by just expressing my heartfelt gratitude for giving me the space to share my thoughts and experiences with you today. While this is a generalized talk, I will be drawing from a lot of my own personal journey but yeah… about me.
My name is Sugopi. I was born in India. I came here when I was really young. I grew up in a spiritual family, but I feel like spiritual just has a very loose context. Um, so if you’re in an Indian family and you say you grew up doing yoga, it can mean a whole bunch of different things. So growing up, I had a very different idea of what yoga was. And then, you know, growing up here, going to high school, going to my first yoga class at a yoga studio, I realized that it was a little bit more, not a little bit it was very much tailored around the physical practice, the asanas.
So high school was when I first started getting into the physical side of yoga. And then, in college, I had my own spiritual journey. I got more immersed into the tradition of bhakti yoga, and I wanted to learn more. I wanted to learn it authentically. I didn’t really know what was credible or not, and I think there was a lot of intuitive guidance that I followed, which led me to India numerous times.
And then I took the physical aspect a little too seriously. Did my yoga training at a local studio here. And then I actually realized that there was just too stark differences in my idea of yoga and how it’s taught. And just generally it felt like I couldn’t get these two categories to, like, merge.
So I went to India, Govardhan Ecovillage in Mumbai, and I did some immersion weekends in yoga training there to kind of help me bridge the gaps, interweave it. And that’s essentially my yoga journey.
I taught in DC. I teach in Falls Church. I teach at Random Retreats, and I’m still figuring it out. Still, I feel like a novice in the community. And I’m still figuring it out. Yeah.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Thank you. I should point out that I feel very fortunate that Sugopi is here in the Washington, DC area. So in addition to getting to see her on zoom, I actually get to see her in person. So let’s begin by defining our terms. What is cultural appropriation and how can we recognize it when we see it?
SUGOPI: So my definition or I guess the, the dictionary definition is one culture adopting and potentially misinterpreting elements of another culture without understanding or respecting the context and the significance that it holds in that culture. And oftentimes it’s exploited, mismarketed, commodified. Um, but essentially it’s adopting, misinterpreting, not understanding, not respecting.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: And by definition, cultural appropriation would involve an, if I understand it correctly, an imbalance of power, a power dynamic that is not where the two cultures engage with one another, are on the same level insofar as power is concerned. Correct.
SUPGOPI: I agree with that. Yeah, I can see. Yeah.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: So, can you give us some examples?
SUPGOPI: Personally, I feel like the visual and tangible things are the easiest things to colonize. So, for example, food, fashion, clothes. For example, Coachella. You will see everybody dressed up in either like Native American clothing with the feathers. You’ll see aspects of Indian culture: the bindi, um, which again holds very sacred spiritual meaning behind it. It has a purpose behind it. But everyone’s like, oh, it looks pretty. And you know what? It’s mystical, it’s spiritual. It’s something that makes me look like I fit in a box. So those, for example, would be cultural appropriation, aspects tangible, very easy.
Other things would be, for example, I’ve been to Studios in South America, actually specifically. And, you know, you’ll see deities of either Buddha, like anything in the Buddhist tradition or in the Hindu religion. They’ll be placed in the bathroom or on the floor or places where are just like a no, no, you know. Growing up, it’s like you treat deities, um, very respectfully, and they are there to serve a purpose. It’s not just like something that fits the vibe or looks like, you know, it’s authentic and therefore it belongs in the studio. So those would be examples, that I can think of right now at the top of my head.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: You know, it’s it strikes me that it’s possible that it’s a kind of fine line between appropriation and appreciation. So, for example, I saw it at a studio in Old Town Alexandria that had a beautiful and very big statue of Ganesh in the studio, and I’m inclined to think that the studio owner wasn’t trying to be appropriative, that her attitude was not that this is decor that suits the vibe of the studio, but she was trying, in her own way, to connect modern yoga to the yoga tradition. So I’m wondering if you can speak a little bit about the distinction between appropriation and appreciation?
SUGOPI: Yeah, I think approaching anything with respect. Respect from the depths in terms of understanding some degree of the knowledge. Like you don’t have to go all the way back to who Ganesh is, his whole life story, who his parents are. It doesn’t have to go that far. But just knowing that. Hey, this is a deity. And he is very respected in this religion. And there are people that follow this path.
I don’t even want to say religion, because I understand that we live in a time where a lot of it’s very anti-institutional. So I don’t even want to say that. But like, there are people that hold deep reverence for certain elements of that, whether it’s a deity, whether it’s a name, whether it’s a mantra, whether it’s, just a practice, a ritual.
And thinking that, okay, I should offer that same respect, even if I don’t have that same belief to not offend others, to not minimize the religion or the aspects of the spiritual practice or the path, the culture, the heritage, all of all of the above. So I think, yeah, to answer your question, approaching something with respect, and understanding, approaching it with curiosity are two elements that are very pivotal to appreciating the culture as opposed to appropriating it.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: All right. That’s helpful. Thank you. So you mentioned things that are visible. Um, and, you know, one of the most visible elements of modern yoga, insofar as how yoga is portrayed, in social media or in advertising or whatnot are people who are practicing yoga. And criticisms of the way yoga is portrayed in the West is that practitioners are generally people in Western bodies as opposed to and the idea of erasure of people who are most closely associated by ancestry to the yoga tradition is something that’s leveled against, you know, modern yoga and its depiction. So I’m wondering, on a personal level, uh, do you feel erased by the way yoga is portrayed in the media.
SUGOPI: I do, and it’s interesting. So I gave a I gave a lecture at this private school, and they do these little mini mesters. And it was about, again, it was about yoga appropriation. And then it was mostly talking about the industry, and big things that you hear in the yoga industry. Right. Yoga Alliance is a non-profit, revenue 13 million a year. If you look at the executive board, if you look at, who runs this non-profit, you’re not going to find people of color there.
I think there’s one person, who has not even, like an executive role, you know, but for example, that is probably one of the biggest names. I know it’s based in the US, but it has a global impact. So that’s one example where, yeah, you don’t really see a lot of representation.
Another example would be Yoga Journal. Go to Whole Foods. You got your whole stack of magazines, your holistic approach, your spiritual, your vegan magazines. And I will always see Yoga Journal and it basically just looks like Cosmopolitan, but with somebody in Lululemon clothes, and it’s always going to be, you know, Western beauty standards.
It’s always somebody either really thin or some kind of like Scandinavian blonde person doing some very intricate asana. And it’ll say something like how to align your chakras, right. And again, the representation… and I actually looked. I looked at all the covers of Yoga Journal, and I had never seen a person of color. Asian, South Asian, until I think, like two years ago.
So that that’s another example where I feel like erasure. That’s a good term, I like that. It’s it’s there. So, yeah, that’s like the two, two major names that come to to mind. Um, and of course, you know, you have your capitalistic areas, you got your Alo, your Lululemon, your Athleta. And I think for the longest time they kind of followed the same standards where it wasn’t it wasn’t representative until, you know, body positivity became a thing. So all of a sudden we got all sizes and then diversity inclusion became a big thing. Now we have some models of different nationalities and ethnicities that show up. But again, it’s more of a marketing, marketing capitalism drive that’s doing that not so much of a cultural appreciation.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Okay, this idea of commerce driven yoga versus yoga as a spiritual practice is something I want to get into. I also want to explore what should be done or what we can do. I know that some of the organizations and publications you mentioned have an awareness of this issue and genuinely wish to do something positive. So I want to come back to that as well.
But before I ask you to speak about any of these issues. I want to see if anyone in our live studio audience has a question or a comment, which you can pop into the chat, or if you want to raise your hand, you can use the react tool at the bottom of your screen to raise your hand. Or you can simply unmute yourself and we’ll take questions and comments on a first come, first serve basis.
Anyone have anything that they would like to ask or comment that you would like to make in response to anything she’s said so far? Uh, somebody, uh. Angela. Angela, you, uh. I’m not, I’m not. So I’m not so sure that your name is accurate. Last I checked. How are you doing?
PERRY: I’m doing well, sir. I’ll change the name in a moment. I just wanted to, uh, point out that Faith Hunter was on the cover of Yoga Journal, uh, about a decade ago. And, uh, Marcus Lee, uh, another person of color, uh, has been on the cover of Yoga Journal as well.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Faith Hunter’s studio, uh, when she had it here in DC, is, uh, where Mr. Daniels and I met quite some time ago. And I’m very happy to see you again. Thank you very much for being here.
PERRY: Yes, sir.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: All right. Glenna.
GLENNA: Thank you very much for your comments Sugopi. I find them. It’s very helpful to me, having kind of been concerned about the cultural appropriation and not wanting to contribute to it as a yoga teacher.
So one of the things that has that I’ve seen, there’s been a lot of visibility about was using the using Namaste in your practice. And how in the Western world is being used inappropriately? It’s not being used as it actually is intended that it’s a greeting, whereas it’s used at the end of class. Everybody just automatically performatively, you know, ends the class with saying Namaste.
So I’m just curious, is that In your opinion, is that an example of cultural appropriation that is negative or harmful? I’m just curious about this because, you know, I stopped using Namaste at the end of the class. I closed my class differently. And then, you know, I also know people… there’s like, you were talking about t shirts. There’s like, Namaste slay that’s on t shirts. I don’t even know what that means exactly, but you know that. So there’s inappropriateness of terminology, Sanskrit terminology. But I’m particularly curious about your take on the use of Namaste in with a teacher using that in a practice.
SUPGOPI: That is a wonderful question. S o I grew up hearing namaste as a greeting. And when I, you know, started doing the physical asanas and I saw and heard all the teachers using Namaste at the end. I did kind of go into my own little research wormhole where I was like, where is “the light in me sees the light in you” coming from?
Like, is that something that’s just kind of been passed through the grapevine? Is that, um, where is the credible source of where that comes from? And I came to the conclusion that it doesn’t mean that, you know, and I personally don’t use it. I will say namaste as a greeting. I think it is a greeting. And I have, um, had a class actually not not one, but many classes where I think people are just so used to it that even if I don’t end a class with them, everybody will say Namaste back to me.
I’ve been teaching for seven years now and I still come across it. And I think at the beginning I was like, oh, maybe they’ll pick it up, maybe they won’t. And it’s something in the beginning it did irk me a little bit, but I’m like, why am I holding on to this? Like, I don’t I don’t think it’s harmful. But the areas where it could get a little muddled are when the definition is not the definition, or what everybody assumes it to be is not what it actually is: the light in me sees the light in you”. It is a form of reverence.
It is a part of, I don’t even want to say Hinduism because I feel like it’s a lifestyle. It’s like a ashram lifestyle thing. So there is that sense of reverence that comes with acknowledging everybody as a spark of the same splendor or all the same spark. There’s equality. There’s, you know, I bow to you in a respectful way, and that’s the way I’ve always seen it and the way I’m always going to see it.
So I don’t say it. I will start the class sometimes, but I never end it that way. And I know there are teachers that have just, like, cemented in their heart that it means I see the light in you and I honor you. And if that really is the intention, and it’s something that they hold really, truly, I think the intention is lovely. It’s very nice.
I think it’s just been around for so long that I don’t know if we can change it, but I personally don’t say it. I’ve been to a lot of classes that are taught by teachers that are aware of the fact that the definition kind of got lost in translation. And they also don’t say it, but you have a full class, half of the class will somehow or other say it back to you. So that’s that’s my opinion. That’s my experience.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Thank you, Sugopi and Glenna, thank you for your question. I got into the habit of ending my classes by saying, I offer my respects to all of you in order to make it really clear that I, as an individual, was offering my respect to each individual in my class, and by saying it in English as opposed to codifying it improperly, because translation wise, it’s almost like saying, hello, I must be going. You know, I tried to make it clear that, you know, that that’s a more appropriate way to end the class as opposed to using. Namaste. Sarah, you have your hand up. You have the floor.
SARA: Thank you so much for having this conversation Hari-kirtans and Sugopi. I think you’ve started to answer my question a little bit with this previous question. However, I am curious how you because I’m gathering you also teach asana classes in a yoga studio.
Do you find that your classes or what you bring to a class is different because of your exploration and kind of connection with a lineage or a traditional understanding or knowledge or study of yoga, of yoga philosophy, of devotional aspect of yoga.
So I’m just curious how is your class different or how is what you offer, and maybe you offer things outside of just the physical posture classes. But I’m curious, how does that how would someone experience you differently than going to another class because of your relationship with yoga?
SUPGOPI: You know, I feel like all teachers have something that they can impart. And I’ve experienced physical asana classes where they don’t really talk about any spiritual aspect. They don’t really go into subtle energies, subtle body.
But as somebody who has my own practice being a student in one of those classes, I’m able to kind of take my practice where I want it to go because of that. And I’m hoping that even if I teach a class where I am able to kind of sprinkle a little bit of Vedic philosophy or maybe even some of the sutras that whoever is in the class if they have their own practice, they know where it’s going to go.
You know, like the body speaks to them, the mind speaks to them. It doesn’t speak to me. So all I can do is just kind of throw some stuff out. Maybe it resonates. Maybe it doesn’t.
But what I do like to try to introduce in all my classes is, um. I hate the term dharma talk. I don’t know why. Like, it just it feels really weird to say it. So I will start off classes, and I’m just like, here’s a concept of tapas for example. Right. Or something from the sutras. If not, maybe something from the Gita. Some kind of authoritative scripture on the practice of yoga. Not just the asanas, but I’m talking eight limbs, so it could be the yamas and niyamas.
Asana? Not really so much to talk about the asana. That’s something you really just have to experience. Won’t go into like moksha or meditation, but just little things where it’s like, hey, think about this, think about the ego, maybe think about determination and perseverance or letting go pratyahara, you know.
So I’ll throw in different things. And then of course, it is a physical asana class. So during certain poses, and I think this is where my connection kind of comes into play. Like, I grew up listening to stories of Ramayan and Hanuman and you know, Matsya and all these different incarnations of Vishnu and all these different sages.
So, like when we’re in certain poses, sometimes we’ll sprinkle a little bit of, of background. So Ardha Hanumanasana, this is supposed to symbolize Hanuman when he took the leap to the leap to Lanka or how he jumped across the Indian Ocean. So we want to, you know flex the foot. Back knee comes down. Inhale. Find that strength. Exhale. You know you take that physical part sprinkle it in because that’s where everybody is. And you want to make sure they’re doing it safely and facilitating.
But I will throw in something like that. Same with trikanasana. Right. It’s Shiva. It is. There’s a whole dance behind it Or like warrior one. Warrior two. Virabhadra who’s Virabhadra? 28:39
Warrior three hands, go forward. Do we know what we’re offering when we’re in warrior three? It’s a head! And everybody giggles and they’re like, whoa, really? Like, I didn’t even realize that, right?
So I will throw in these little things because all of these asanas that are named after certain characters or personalities, they have something that you’re supposed to pick up and something that you’re supposed to let go.
So those are some examples of what I do. And I also really try to prioritize meditation towards the end: savasana. I am so serious about my shavasana when I teach those because I’m like, it’s not a resting pose. Like, you have to you have to be alert, but you also have to observe. And it’s like the hardest in my opinion. It is the hardest physical asana.
And there was a whole point, you know, to it. And then all of the asana doesn’t matter. It’s eventually to get you into a comfortable seat so you can prepare yourself for meditation.
So after they’re in Shavasana, I do try to have everybody sit in an erect position, lotus pose, bring that awareness to pineal gland, third eye. And sometimes, depending on who’s in the class, I’ll maybe add a little bit more. Sometimes I’ll take some back. But those are like elements that I feel like are authentic and ultimately needed.
So those are things that I’ll put into the practices that I teach. Sorry, that was a very long winded answer, but hopefully that answers some questions.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: It was a very comprehensive answer. Sarah, thank you for your question. And Sugopi, thank you for your answer. The story of Virabhadra is actually one of my favorite stories to tell in order to connect the series of that series of poses to the story from the yoga wisdom tradition.
Okay. Sophia has a question, and Anita just came back. Hold your question for just a moment. I’m betting Anita will come back with with her question. And I have a comment from Juliana in the chat, and I’m going to share that with everyone.
But I just have a quick follow up question based on what Sarah just asked you. One of the effects of the campaign to decolonize yoga has been, in my experience, that some teachers who are not ancestrally connected to India feel as if they are obliged to defer to Indian-bodied yoga teachers just on the basis that they are Indian, that they grew up in the culture of yoga, presumably, although that is not necessarily a qualification in the yoga philosophy.
In yoga philosophy, a material designation such as the body you happen to be born in is called an upadhi, a covering over the self and someone who is conversant in the science of understanding the true nature of the self – according to yoga – is someone who is qualified to teach.
Yoga does not have anything to do with material embodiment, so to speak. Um, and so I’m just wondering what is your response or what would you say to yoga teachers who are are getting this message that they are underqualified to teach by virtue of their ancestry or ethnicity, as opposed to qualified by virtue of their years of study and practice.
SUPGOPI: Not cool. I don’t think that the bases of your ethnicity, your ancestry, puts you in any superior position. I think that every teacher has something to offer. And we all take these roles as teachers, whether you’ve gone through a 200 hour training, whether you’ve gone to India or whether you’ve just kind of done your own thing sitting in a cave for six years like we’re all entitled to teach something. Right.
Just because, like, they have a certification or they have a piece of paper or, um, ultimately that’s it, you know? But if you have the years of experience, the self-awareness, the practice, the discipline that you’ve cultivated, and then that kind of takes you in a position where you feel like you’re able to, to teach, impart wisdom that has been directly transferred from, I guess, like a bona fide lineage. You know, I think that’s also a really important aspect. Then yeah by all means, I would empower you to teach and not on the basis of the body, the covering, whatever. Um, but from like a place of, of jnana and dharmically like approaching it and again having respect to the culture. Um, not I don’t want to even say India because yoga predates Hinduism. It does predate India. It was this, you know, pre pangean, giant subcontinent. But wherever that culture originated, that is the culture, right? And it has such deep, intricate, sacred meaning. So as long as that’s respected, that’s understood. I’d say go for it.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Thank you. That actually connects to what Julianna put in the chat, which I’ll share with you. And you can respond if you like. I use Namaste. I give my understanding of it to be. Quote. Beneath our apparent differences, we are the same and that sameness is worthy of respect. End quote.
This is my definition that came intuitively. God loves an adverb. It’s not what we do, but the attitude with which we do it. Yoga predates Hinduism. It is universal dharma. I say stick with the Dharma, the yamas and niyamas and you cannot go wrong. Especially souca purity of mind steers the course. Any thoughts on Giuliana’s comment?
SUGOPI: That’s. It actually reminds me of a conversation that I had with a teacher. Um, I even want to say, like teacher. Right? What is really a teacher? Okay. Somebody who had their 200-hour cert, um, and I was talking to her about, you know, the certain things that I feel like should be imperative in a yoga teacher training.
I feel like reading Patanjali’s Sutras is like bare minimum. Like every teacher has to have some idea or knowledge of it. And I remember she was like, well, I haven’t read it. So what do you say to that? And I, you know, this is a friend of mine. This is a really good person.
But it did make me think for a second. And I was like, so what qualifies you to teach yoga? If you haven’t read the Yoga Sutras or understand, I guess, the basics o, this like authoritative manual that has been codified and systematized and printed for our benefit.
It kind of reminds me of like, and I know there’s two kinds of people. There’s you open a package and you throw the instruction manual out and you figure it out, and then you’re like, yeah, I don’t know if this is right or not. And then you got your people that look at the manual very, very strictly. And then there are some people in the middle that are like, I think I can do it, but if I’m not sure, let me go back to the manual. We are very intuitive beings but again, the way the I don’t even want to say system, the way it was created was that you have these teachers that devoted their whole lives, you know, they had to be self-realized in order to pass it forward.
It wasn’t like today where we’re managing 200 different things. We have on two different hats. And then somewhere in between there it’s like, oh yes, I’m also a yoga teacher, but it’s like, what does that mean? Are you are you self-realized? How’s that going with the other gajillion things that we’re doing in a very capitalistic society.
So I do agree, to Julianna’s comment, I think the yamas and niyamas are super important. I think they are like the basis of any teacher that wants to authentically teach yoga. I remember at my own personal training that I took here in the States, the first they only paid attention to like the first part of the book, and then towards the end, it kind of gets a little, I guess what I remember they said that it sounds like The Avengers now, and I was like, wait, time out? What? Like, you know, it goes into a little bit of a metaphysical aspect.
And I was like, okay. And then they just they ended it there. They just shut it right there. And so those are the kind of things that happen that that make me feel very like, okay, so that’s it. Just because like, it seems kind of out of this world or something almost unattainable maybe in this lifetime, like we’re not even going to talk about it or think about it or so. Yeah. but then also through a book. Yeah. I think it’s like it’s imperative. It is.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Thank you. Sophia, thank you for being so patient. And, Anita, if you still have a question, I’ll come to you next. Sophia, please go ahead.
SOPHIA: Thank you for having the platform to discuss this. Because as I sit here and listen, I, I feel a lot of turbulence in my body. I teach Kundalini yoga, and it’s a deeply spiritual practice, and I have utmost respect and reverence for the practice because it really helped me evolve into a better human being in all aspects of my life.
And so I have kind of like a few comments and then questions for you, because in my practice it’s a little bit beyond asanas, really. It’s all about the energies and the subtle body and the projection and the aura. And I also feel so honored when people do choose to come to that practice because it’s way deeper. It’s beyond the Lululemon pants and the warrior one and two. Right.
And so it takes a certain caliber of, of a person to step into that class. Because there is a lot more mudras. There’s a lot more mantras. There’s a lot more quote unquote dharma talk. And so I could look at the class and say, oh, wow. I have, you know, the demographic of such and such. But I look at it as these are the souls that are coming in and we’re all we’re all one. Right? So I you know, this talk about lineage and being connected to a certain region, to be able to feel like you’re not an imposter teaching yoga is really challenging to me to understand.
Because we reincarnate so many times and we reincarnate in so many different color bodies and in so many different religions and in so many different parts of the world, that who is to say that over all the many lifetimes that this soul has experienced, that I don’t have some kind of connection to the space of the origins of yoga? And how does that fit into umbrella of Oneness?
And I feel really grateful that people coming into yoga and making room for that aspect. Sure, there’s different perspective, and so we’re so different. I taught in a yoga studio where the teacher, when I suggested that we set up some kind of altar, some kind of sacred space, she was like, oh no, no, no, this is not. And then in the corner I see dumbbells and it becomes like power yoga with dumbbells, you know. And that hurt.
And then I, and I see studios where there is definitely a degree of reverence so that there is altars and there’s like candles and incense and you. But I mean, even in the teacher training, I can’t stop somebody who is wearing a mala and they’re going to the bathroom, you know, just because they don’t know. But I have compassion for them because they’re doing what they think is best from the level of their awareness.
I think the struggle that I personally have, because I was born in Uzbekistan, so Indian culture was very close to me. I grew up with movies, I grew up with the food. It is kind of like, and when I went to India, I really did feel like I came home for a visit.
But what we lack in this country is, is that degree of devotion and reverence. We just don’t bow to anything. And it’s it’s very hard to teach that. And I feel that over the last few years, I feel it’s through my own aura and my own example and my own projection that I could maybe energetically pass on that kind of like when I speak about the mantras, when I speak about mudras, I tell people how important it is and what effect it has.
But I can’t make somebody love it or respect it the way I do. I could only hope that they will take away something from it. And the other thing I want to comment on is I’ve witnessed powerful teachers. You know, I was invited to be a guest in Ashtanga yoga class to teach about pranayama and mantras. And when I talk about mantras and, you know, there was a comment that the teacher made that, oh, we don’t want to get too woo woo. And I find that triggering also because I live in the woo woo, I thrive in a woo woo, right. And it’s like metaphysical, ethereal and divine spiritual and unknowable and unexplainable things is what makes me alive. They make me feel curious.
And so, like, I appreciate having the discussion. I appreciate having the different perspectives, I really do. But I also feel that I don’t want to sit here and feel like my hands are being slapped because I’m doing the best I can as a yoga teacher to instill that level of reverence, that sacredness for this practice.
And I catch myself very often in classes saying that yoga is more than what the West plays it out to be, and you have to understand that. So my question to you is, you know, in the community of Kundalini yoga, when I went to my teacher training, we were required to wear head coverings or turban wear all white. And, you know, that felt like an imposter to me, right? And I felt like I understand the science behind wearing a head cover. I understand what it does, and I’ve experienced the difference between teaching with a head covering and without, but it doesn’t feel like it’s mine, right? It doesn’t feel like it’s mine.
So what are your feelings on when we. You know, in my own practice, I lean very often to mantras. I trust God that everybody’s protected or what’s the best way to instill that reverence? Like I don’t print out mantras on a sheet because I don’t want those mantras to be scrambled and thrown away. Right. So what are the other things that I could do to facilitate learning about the mantras? But with respect, that’s the question.
SUGOPI: Okay. So I do want to acknowledge and I want to thank you for caring so deeply about this practice. It’s very obvious from the way you spoke about it. And it’s not easy to cultivate such genuine care and understanding. And it’s truly appreciated. It really is.
About the mantras: I feel like you have put a lot of time into understanding, right? The tsource, the practice. I don’t know too much about Kundalini as far as how the community is portrayed here in the West. I think it’s what I’ve seen is it usually is commodified in a little bit of a different way. But again, I don’t know the studio, I don’t know the practice, but from just hearing you, you know, the last couple of minutes, you genuinely care and you have a deep reverence and all you can do is put that forward.
And if there’s anything that I’ve learned is that you can teach. You can teach asana. You can teach compassion. You can teach a lot of things, but you can’t teach people to care. And that’s just one of the things that we have to accept.
So the fact that you care as a teacher, you care. That’s a lot. Mantras;;; I don’t think you’re doing anything wrong, if you know what you’re saying. If, you know, like, the origin of it, if you know essentially what the mantra is supposed to be for. I think that’s fine.
For example, I sometimes will do mantra meditation workshops. And I’ll do kind of like a mantra one on one. And it talks about Sanskrit. Right? The language that is the mantra.
Sanskrit is a very it’s a it’s a deeply like onomatopoeic language, like the sound is reverberated within the word, the word and the sound are interchangeable, so sometimes I feel like that might be a good idea. I found that to be useful, and then instead of incorporating it in classes, I’ll just kind of have these like month workshops so people understand what is the point of mantra, what does it resonate with?
And I all of it is interrelated. You know, you’ll hear about chakras and then you have bija mantras that are specific to the chakras. You’ll have astrology and then you have mantras specific to astrology. Sound bowls are a big thing. You have month specific to the sound bowls.
So it’s like they’re just they’re all over the practice. And the Dharmic lifestyle essentially. So I don’t think you’re ever going to get it perfect. I don’t have it perfect. Regardless if you’re Indian or not Indian or you were raised with it, there’s just there’s so many others out.
But all you can do is study, understand, find the knowledge and then with care, pass that forward to your students. And I think you’re doing fine. There are cases of appropriation where you’ll be in a class and somebody will randomly just Google like yoga mantra, and they’ll just start speaking the mantra.
They don’t really know what they’re doing. For example, Gayathri is a very common one. The inherent practices mantras are supposed to be passed as prescriptions, in a way. They’re not just kind of like a free for all. They’re supposed to help you for certain things based off of, you know, your attributes, where you’re going, what you’d like, what your desires are, where you’re struggling.
So that’s something that I feel like is appropriated, where you’re just like, and we’re just going to do the Gayatri mantra, right? Or for example, the most common one that I’ve heard is the Sukhino Bhavantu, right? May all beings everywhere be happy and free. And that will be right after a yoga class, right before a major like seafood grill or like the yoga studio is holding, like a barbecue or something.
And I’m like, okay, do you see the discrepancy where it’s like where I’m like, okay, we just said, may all beings everywhere be happy and free, and now we’re about, you know, like things like that. So that’s where it’s like, okay, are you aware of what you just said and what you told everybody? And now what are you about to go practice?
Are you just saying it because it sounds cool, or are you saying it because it’s like sunscreen? Are you saying it just because, like, it goes with the vibe. That’s those elements of appropriation. You can see it makes me a little frustrated because I’m like, what what what what can I do at this point?
So those are examples where they’re on a different side. But I think whatever you’re doing, Sofia, it’s fine. And I can feel the deep reverence that you have. And I think that whatever you’re doing, if it feels right, like. Do it, do it.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Sofia, thank you for your comments and question. And Sugopi, thank you for your answer. We have about five minutes left. Nina, do you still have a question?
ANITA: Well, I’m sorry, but I would like to say something. I think I think the Western Western yoga asana is a gateway. It is. It’s an amazing opportunity for us. So many of us are yoga teachers, probably on this call, it seems. And I think we are on this call because we are seeking, we are on our own paths.
So I’ve been teaching for 13 years, but I have seen that the Western process is an amazing gateway for Westerners. I live overseas, but I work all around the world, and being Indian myself, I think it has presented as an opportunity, especially for those of us that have even a slight interest at whatever degree we’re at, wherever we are on our path.
And if we come from it with sincerity and intention or and seeking genuine, genuinely, I think we are we’re on that road to how do your questions in the beginning is how do we shift this? How do we shift the conversation in appropriations or whatever that is? And that starts with all of us. And that’s what I strive to do in my classes.
So I teach asana. But my students know that they’re not only going to get that from me. And I think if we if we can come from that direction, and see it instead of at least for myself, I see it for the opportunity that it presents. We can all take some ownership to bring that to the Western yoga culture, and I think it is happening.
I see a lot of people, some on this call, I know they teach and and we’re bringing our own bhakti practices to that class. Hari-kirtana, you’re definitely one of them. Right.
And if we come to, to share the message in our own genuine way and how it how it our own realizations and what we’ve heard from our own teachers, whatever path we’re on, I think that’s the way forward. But sorry, that was not a question. Just a comment. All right.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Anita, thank you. Um, with the time we have left, I want to give that Dat Dude Johnny an opportunity to ask a question or make a comment. Go ahead.
DAT DUDE JOHNNY: Thank you. Um, and this is probably a really great way to wrap things up here, too. I love all of what I’m hearing. Definitely agree with a lot of it. Especially the sentiment, like, you know, a lot of the people that I teach personally are folks that are, you know, new, fresh into the game. A lot of country folks, a lot of black folk, like people coming from different cultures where if I just hit them with the sutras right out of the gates, they never coming back.
So it’s like, you know, a lot of times I gotta implement some Jedi mind tricks where it’s like, you know, I’m you think you’re just here for movement, but next thing you know, I done slid some wisdom under the door and you ain’t even see it.
And in those sentiments within that, like, it is a weird, tricky path, especially over the past few years with so much that has become hyper focused on a lot of what is, you know, cultural appropriation or DEI matters and things like that.
And as you mentioned, a lot of it is mostly there just to check a box. It’s for optics, not as much as the intention behind doing the things. But I think it is important to continue the conversations and wanted to see if you had any, you know, glaring things that, um, that you think are like, yes, this is without a doubt, unquestionably egregious. Don’t do this thing.
And some of those things where, you know, a lot of folks who are trying to be hypersensitive about it or over corrective might be pushing too much. And it’s like this, in my opinion, is not as big of a deal as it has been hyped up to be. So the extremes of either side really?
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Yeah, that’s a great question, Sugopi.
SUGOPI: Yeah. So superficial implementations in yoga. Like, what are we doing here? Right. It’s just it’s acrobatic. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had. So one studio I teach at in DC has mirrors. I’m personally not a fan of mirrors because I feel like all you do is just kind of focus on external. Right.
And I’ll always have the class looking the opposite direction. And I’ve had multiple times where I’m like, we’re facing this way. And they’re like, oh, but we have to like use the mirrors. And I’m like, we’ll get a chance when we’re turning around or whatever, you know, like you’ll do that. But I can… the Insta yoga crew is.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: So Gopi, you cut out for a second.
SUGOPI: Just very frustrated by this, you know? Um, so.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Oh.
SUGOPI: You’re back. Can you hear me?
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: Yes. Good.
SUPGOPI: I don’t know, can you hear me now? You’re taking it online is not really cool. And that also leads to this hypersexualisation of yoga. Um, go on to any social media type in yoga. I think that’s going to pop up. Is most likely a beach with a very pretty looking female, most likely scantily dressed in some kind of a fancy asana, right?
Insta yoga. And that’s what everybody thinks. I work with a bunch of people that sit at desks all day, and I was like, I can’t, it’s too hypersexualized. I don’t think I could go there. And I’m like, is this really what people think of like when you think, you know, so there’s there’s that spectrum and then because it’s what’s online that goes into this whole commercialized yoga dog yoga, beer, yoga, yoga, nude yoga, um, all of that, like, okay, um, I get it. You want to make money, you got to sell tickets. Don’t use the word yoga.
Like I said, Sanskrit is so already resonant in it. Yoga means to yoke, right? It means the union. Um, and now you’re just kind of throwing yoga, the term in front of all these really cool, fun commercial experiences. But it’s not yoga. Um, other things I see in studios are tarot readings, right? For some reason or other, it’s together. And they’re like Yeah, we’re doing tarot card with yoga. And I’m like, where’s, um, crystal? Um, deeply ooted in, like, Vedic philosophy. They have a sense. But now you’re just saying, like, you’re going to be I’m going to throw a bunch of crystals on you that most likely haven’t been activated.
But it goes with the thing. It goes the vibe it goes with or okay, now we’re talking about chakras. So like, you know, they’re all of those things that you’re just taking different things and then somehow tying them with you, which is complete practice within itself. Um, so that cool things that I think are doable are mudras are fine. Mantra meditation. Fine. Um, just bringing awareness to chakras. Fine. Pranayama go for it. Like they’re all part of it. Maybe they’re a little aspects if you want to include Ayurveda in there. Um, it’s a sister science of yoga. I think those are fine. Um, yeah. Yeah. Does does that answer your question that Dat Dude Johnny.
DAT DUDE JOHNNY: Yeah. Very much. Thank you kindly.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: All right. Thank you, Johnny, for your question. And to Sugopi for your answer, I quickly want to include Celeste’s comment in the chat. I do not disagree with many of the comments, however, I also believe in meeting people where they are.
You came to yoga to get a firmer behind for a pool party? Great. They likely have little reverence, but what they get out of it may be more than what they came for. Agreed that it is a gateway.
So it’s an interesting thing to navigate what constitutes a legitimate gateway and what constitutes creating a bogus experience that that really isn’t going to take anyone in the direction of yoga, insofar as the Sanskrit, meaning of the word actually goes.
I feel like we have just scratched the surface of this conversation, so I hope we can pick it up again at some future date. So Sugopi, thank you so very, very much for being here with us and for fielding all of these questions and engaging with everyone who is here for our conversation today.
SUGOPI: Thank you for having me. Thank you guys for letting me share and keeping it a safe space. And I look forward to having more conversations in the future.
HARI-KIRTANA DAS: So thank you all once again Sugopi, thank you so very much. I look forward to seeing all of you again soon.